The retail price of the Sigma SD1 is $6,899 - almost $3,000 less than the initial MSRP of $9,700. This also explains why the SD1 kits were priced lower than the body.
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49 Comments
Still way too expensive
“Still way too expensive”
Then try buying a 46-megapixel DSLR from Nikon or Canon. How about a Leica S2 which is 37,5 Mp and costs more than double the price of the Sigma?
At least they have better lenses and buyers can find them easily
1. Mp aren’t everything. 2. Only in B&W does the SD1 have 45 mp. In colour it’s still 15. 3. I would take a 24 mp 35mm sensor or a 32 mp MF sensor over 45 mp APS-C sensor any day of the year. $6700 for a 15mp APS-C sensor is way too much, no matter what brand is on the front.
exactly opposite, B&W have lowest resolution as all 15Mpixels are above each other while 24Mpix Bayer have real 24Mpixels (though 12Mpixels are green, 6 are red and 6 blue)
But Foveon 15MP ≠ Bayer 15MP. Each Foveon pixel could have its own unique color unlike Bayer which needs 3 of them combined (that why they loss some sharpness).
It’s a bit of a false marketing exercise. Bayer technology achieves approximately 70% of the resolution – this is a mathematical fact, not a number plucked from thin air. Sigma are allowed to say that it’s 45mp because there are literally 45 million individual ‘pixels’ (actually sub-pixels); but since they are aligned directly below one another, in reality it’s 15mp x3, with resolution equivalent to a 21.4mp sensor if enlarged to this size. In theory, the advantage of the SD1 should lie with the dynamic range of the colour channels, but the comparative lack of expertise in sensor optimisation when compared to the major camera manufacturers makes me doubt that this will be the case. Furthermore:
a) Pixel density is relatively high, since it is an APS-C sensor,
b) Colour (and light) information is lost in the lower layers,
c) The sensor does not use new innovations such as gapless microlenses (hugely difficult in a Foveon sensor), thus decreasing individual pixel surface area.
All of these will limit ISO performance, dynamic range and colour latitude (all concepts which are theoretically related in performance). Having said that, clearly Sigma is sinking a lot of cash into each sensor, which may result in something good after all.
It would be very interesting if Sigma (or preferably another company with sufficient funds) were to alter the current design so that the different layers are all slightly offset, although extremely difficult to do. This would certainly lead to a significant increase in resolution, but it would be a completely different sensor design with different advantages. If you have 4 layers, each offset by 50%, this would lead to a fourfold increase in resolution. Some Hasselblads have a similar feature where the sensor is physically shifted by a small fraction.
In short, I doubt this camera is worth anywhere near $6,899. It is better, however, that they price it high, rather than sacrifice various other image quality aspects; at the moment it is almost certainly superior to current APS-C cameras in everything but ISO performance. For those who buy it, hopefully there’s decent autofocus and ergonomics too.
Great. Please show your math.
Come up with a more helpful comment. It’s certainly not simple maths – not something I can manage, but a fact widely accepted amongst the industry.
Mathematically, you end up with 65-70% of the luminance information, and around 50% of the colour information. In terms of common sense, the result is completely logical, since luminance information is recorded by all pixels regardless of colour. Luminance information is what we mean by resolution.
With regards to colour information, however, the 2 green pixels to 1 red and 1 blue is closer to your eyes’ sensitivity; thus you have a more natural distribution in detail between colours. Real world usage of Foveon cameras also shows that they don’t have a colour advantage, probably because of the processing.
This is the mainstream opinion of the industry, and thus is a theory to be disproved should you disagree, not for me to prove. A little research will show this to be the case. If you think I am wrong, it should be you showing me some evidence to the contrary. Or perhaps it would be better for you to just look at comparisons between the SD14 and comparable cameras from other manufacturers?
And by the way, 70% relates to past generation sensors. As sensor resolution increases, the need for blurring to avoid de-mosaicing artefacts (which is what causes the loss in resolution) decreases, thus resulting in higher comparative resolution. Thus the D3x would probably be similar to a 20mp (or 60mp by Sigma’s counting) Foveon sensor.
even if sigma sd1 res is 46mp, the price is insane.
Too much, sadly, because it looked very promising (before price was announced)
“At least they have better lenses and buyers can find them easily ”
Compared to the Leica S2, Sigma has way more lenses available. As for quality, do you think that you could see any lens quality difference in the final prints – marketing hype aside?
Luminous Landscape made some rather Large prints. Some were made using Canon G10 files and some were made using a Medium Format system (Hassy I think but my memory fails me on this). Same Landscape scene. Pro photogs had a devil of time figuring out which camera made which print. So I doubt that one could see any difference in quality of lenses in final prints – but your financial controller aka wife will notice the difference in bank balance – The few S2 specific lenses are not low priced – could probably get a full Sigma kit of lenses for the price of one or two Leica S2 lenses.
Actually that would be a nice review to see Leica S2 vs Sigma.
don’t know what happened but the reply was supposed to be for genotypewriter
With your example (G10 more or less = Medium Format) you showed magnificently that the SD1 is too expensive.
Not that I believe that a g10 comes even close to a mf pic. Maybe in the right condition at the right time, and god knows who took the pic, when, why, etc.
I just know that 1) 46 mp the Sigma is not, at least not in the way we do perceive mp details, 2) excellent + sigma lenses are not, especially considering the huge difference in IQ different exemplars of the same model show, unfortunately, 3) good cameras the Sigma are not; in the best of cases, competent; the sensor alone does not make the camera, and Sigma has a pretigious story of missing the shoot with its models, in almost any cathegory that distinguishes good cameras from usable cameras.
I really do not see the reason for shelling that pile of gold for a 10 y. ago camera supporting a sensor nobody knows anything about, with a set of lenses which is B+ at best (and no, do not dare comparing them to the Leicas, nor the Nikons or Canons). Good thing is: being the 46 mp from the foveon sensor equivalent (maybe???) to the level of details coming from a 24-28 mp bayer camera, the IQ deterioration due to the not always perfect sigma lenses will be less visible than with a “real” 46 mp bayer magnification
Here’s the link – extremely difficult to tell difference between prints from Canon G10 and MF Hasselblad:
http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/kidding.shtml
BTW Bayer filtering requires intropolation of detail. On a Bayer sensor each pixel provides data for one colour only – the other two are approximated by algorithm in camera. Bayer filtered sensor requires an AA filter to blur the detail otherwise you get moire.
No AA filter on Sigma, to blur out fine detail. No Bayer filter, so each pixel provides data for all three colors.
Agree!
People seem not to realize that the best guess is still a guess either up or down sample.
I bet that if you take a pic of a landscape at night, or the interior of a church during a wedding, or a basketball match, etc. you will be definitively able to tell the difference between a G10 and a Nikon D3s.
The point of a better camera is not only the nice pics you manage to take, but also the nice pics you do not manage to take because your camera does not allow you.
The sigma cameras have a long history of not allowing shooters to take advantage of the sensor at the right moment.
About the samples: yes, nice, I also know pics taken in daylight (and I have seen them printed) I could immediatly say “wow, medium format!”, being correct. Sorry, I just do not trust online samplings too much. There are too many variables we do not know. And of course you are never shown the pics the camera did not manage to take…
Still way too expensive.
It will be very interesting to make it in F-mount
Jet engine in a Yugo? Sigma, please sell there sensors to Nikon/Canon!
If that thing could take Canon and Nikon lenses, I’m sure people would buy it. But it’s gonna be harder like that :/
It can be converted to F mount.
It can also be converted to EF with autofocus intact.
It’s funny that Leica thought that an R10 would be unmarketable.
Sigma Cum Laude http://sigmacumlaude.com/products.html has been selling mount conversions for over 5 years. This is NOT an adapter – you remove the Sigma SA mount and replace it with a custom made Nikon F mount, Leica R mount, etc.
Are they any good? I have no idea? I’ve never used one, although I was considering a R mount kit, several years ago, when Leica R lenses were selling for give-a-way prices.
Too bad their F-mount can’t control aperture, so it doesn’t work with any new G series lens (which is nearly every Nikon lens released in the last 10 years). This is not speculation – they plainly say it on their website. So please stop advertising this useless mount conversion as a defense for Sigma not releasing versions with Canon and Nikon mounts.
The F mount allows the use of manual Zeiss lenses.
However, there’s also an EF mount conversion which allows autofocus and aperture control.
Leica mount also possible.
My latest Nikon purchase was a “D” lens, my next Nikon lens purchase will probably be 24mm f2.8 D. So if I had any interest in a Sigma camera (I don’t) it would not cause me any problems.
… as a defense for Sigma not releasing versions with Canon and Nikon mounts.
No defense needed!! When will Canon release cameras with Nikon mounts?? When will Nikon release cameras with Canon mounts??
MAIN QUESTION:
Does this thing perform in between a Nikon D3x & a D3s?
–> If not, then forget it.
–> If so, then give it a chance.
If it performs more like a 5DMII,
–> Then its far over-priced,
–> Unless a very specific niche-aspect is dramatically improved, in which case it may be a good value to those who need that particular aspect.
Please weigh in/thoughts, especially from Sigma followers.
LMAO……..
OPs…my post was not a reply to yours…something went wrong….anyway, dont expect D3x or s performance…
Wonder what songs they’ll be playing at Sigmas Funeral ?
before they created this sensor people complained there were not enough pixels. this is the first model with a more modern amount; maybe substantial portion of price is trying to recoup some of r&d costs?? subsequent iterations using the sensor cannot continue to be so expensive. i dunno maybe everything about the camera is fantastic but the price is just insane…
Up to now Sigma cameras have never been fantastic. The sensor is very interesting, but everything else is, usually, way sub par, compared to the rest of the crowd
Krazy. Love the above comment>> jet engine in a Yugo! LOL!!!
Seriously, if it had a Canon or Nikon mount, maybe. Sigma only? $7K????
How does one say ‘kool aid’ in Japanese?
MSRP is still $9,700, see http://www.sigmaphoto.com/shop/sd1-dslr-sigma
B&H price is an exemple of street price.
LMAO….features like E-5 and price a la D3X? so sensor 5500…sigma GET REAL….
The thing sigma did wrong with the sd1 is not the street price… It’s making it look like one of their typical lousy dslrs.
price too high i think but we will find out how many sell, good luck, i’m out i will wait for the new canon’s to come out
Still too damn much. I was going to buy one, but with this feature set and this price it is unreasonable. The shutter is only designed to take 100,000 photos. That doesn’t seem like a whole lot for that kind of money. If this system is going to be an investment they’d better have some good intensives to go a long with it.
“If this system is going to be an investment ”
Leica’s may end up being an investment. Pretty much everything else is pissing money down the drain – highly unlikely you will get back what you paid for it, never mind make a profit (pre Japan Earthquake days that is – post earthquake does not count)….
This DSLR is worth less than $3000 whatever.
If they do DP series with this sensor & sold for less than $1500 like Fuji X100, I may still think about to buy one more toys. But for this crazy price? No thanks~
This is a bit harsh. The purpose of camera is to capture a picture, so quality of the sensor is so important. That’s why the D3x price was so crazy compare to D3.
Given the quality of Foveon sensor, it is easily worth a lot more than $3,000.
Well, only if I have a money though.
D3x price is also crazy. Sony A850 has virtually the same sensor as D3x yet you can buy the whole camera for less than the price difference between D3 and D3x
Of course Nikon can (just) get away with crazy prices where Sigma can’t because the D3x is a very very well made camera, with top resolution sensor, professional service network etc – and because most of those who buy the camera likely already have a lot invested in F mount lenses.
That’s a nice idea, but I wouldn’t trade it for an X100, or a X1, for that matter.
“Rent’s too damn high!”
This price is a joke: 10.000 $ and then 7.000$ for a crop camera? Be serios Sigma.
got my tax bill today, sorry sigma maybe next time when you lower the price
cut the price in half now its interesting
I love Sigma sensors in terms of picture quality. The colors, the dynamic range. Wish they made full size sensor with 60 mp or so. But … as a camera, and used them extensively, they stink. Buffer gets overloaded, no weather sealing, autofocus is a joke – in never consistently captures action. I got blurry photos all the time. Sigma lenses are good if 1.4 or 2.8, but not as good as Leica or Nikon or Hasselblad – I used them all. If the camera is close to D3x in speed of operation, doesn’t miss a shot with autofocus, and I am sure the sensor is good except for low light which I don’t need, this camera is worth about $3,000. Not more. For $7000 I would go with Nikon or so. Sorry, Sigma, great camera, but overpriced.