Sony self-claims world wide #2 spot for interchangeable-lens camera sales, still committed to APS-C

Imaging-Resource published a new interview with Kenji Tanaka from Sony - here is the recap from SonyAddict:

  • The bloggers said there was a perception Sony was focused on full frame cameras and Sony executives responded“APS-C is an important category for us. We’ll never quit APS-C!”
  • Not everyone needs full frame. Some Pro users like APS-C for getting extra reach without losing quality, as a second body, or to keep the size down even though Sony full frame is small already.
  • “Please look at our vision, not where our profits come from.” When looking forward, because Sony is willing to invest to advance the industry.
  • Sony has to grow by growing the camera market
  • They plan to do this by making it possible to capture pictures that were impossible to capture before.
  • Sony is all about the long view
  • “*In terms of being a true leader in the market, we were shown market data indicating that Sony now is in fact solidly in the #2 spot for interchangeable-lens camera sales both globally and in several major markets, including the US — and not just for a single month, here or there”
  • “I’m comfortable saying that Sony is now the #2 company in the interchangeable-lens camera business, based on the overall dollar (or Yen?) value of their sales.” This is world wide…

A recent article on Yahoo Japan just reported that Nikon is still at the #2 spot worldwide.

Update from IRThe note above originally claimed Sony was #2 in overall ILC sales, when in fact they are only planning to claim they are #2 in full-frame cameras YTD. Sony clarified the statement on their position in the market and the article has been updated as such.

Source: Imaging-Resource, via SonyAddict

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  • Yeah, that makes sense. They push the envelope on tech constantly and offer some very competent products. For enthusiast shooters they have some really good bang for your buck cameras in the sub-$1,000 range with the A6000, A6300, and A7 that Canikon just doesn’t compete well with from a features/size/image and video quality standpoint.

    I think Nikon is going to have to do better at that sub-$2,000 level if they want to regain the number two spot; warmed over iterations of the D3xxx/D5xxx and feature stripped D7xxx cameras ain’t gonna cut it. Canon also has to watch out with junk like the 6D Mk. II or Sony might be looking at them in the rear view as well in the next 5-10 years.

    • Andrei

      They push the envelope so much, you almost cannot find a decent lens for their APS-C camera. Either bad like the 16-50 or expensive like the 16-70.
      Fuji, Olympus, Panasonic and Canon has better lens selection.

      • abortabort

        Yeah, lets of course ignore the rather unique 18-105mm, because it doesn’t suit your agenda.

  • CaMeRa QuEsT

    Somebody must have been sleeping while at the helm, and with that I mean somebody at Nikon!

    • animalsbybarry

      Sony has been asleep at the helm…. otherwise the would be #1 in mirrorless

      It’s all about the lenses (lack of them)

      • CaMeRa QuEsT

        Actually, they’ve been #1 in mirrorless for a long time already. And they have actually been loosing sleep keeping the new lenses coming.

        • not true.

        • animalsbybarry

          Olympus is #1 in mirrorless

          • Olympus was #1 for 2016 in Japan based on the BCN ranking who count only about 2/3 of all Japanese stores:
            Fuji was not even preset in those rankings. I don’t think Olympus is #1 in mirrorless worldwide but I have no data to prove it.

          • Thom Hogan

            Olympus is averaging a bit over 500k units a year mirrorless. Trailing year numbers overall for mirrorless are about 4m units. It would be hard to claim #1 market share with only 12% of the units.

          • Yes, just what I thought.

          • Thom Hogan

            Nope, neither of you are quite correct. Canon is currently #1 in mirrorless unit volume. Sony probably is #1 in value, but mostly because of the full frame cameras they’re selling.

          • EcoR1

            If that was true, you would expect a public announcement about that pretty soon.

          • abortabort

            Yeah no. Evidence?

      • CHD

        What’s with you guys still critiquing Sony for this supposed ‘lack of lenses’. There are a TONNE of QUALITY lenses available in native Sony mount from Sony, Zeiss, Voigtlander, Tokina just to name a few. Not to mention the myriad of lenses that can be adapted to mount on the Sony cameras. Your argument lost steam over two years ago.

        • Thom Hogan

          Sony has plenty of FE lenses in the 20-200mm range, yes. Many are indeed quite excellent.

          But the APS-C side isn’t quite so great. The old 16mm and 20mm primes aren’t very good with the current sensors, for example, and no fast APS-C zooms are around.

          So it depends upon which Sony mirrorless camera you’re using, and what you’re using it for.

          • Adam Brown

            For the most part, Sony’s aps-c lens set is similar in quality to Nikon and Canon. (In other words… all the camera makers that also do full frame lenses).
            The area where Sony may lack compared to them, is a 16-50/2.8 type lens.

            The aps-c lenses that I like — the 10-18 is a very good zoom. The 35/1.8 and 50/1.8 are perfectly good lightweight primes. The Zeiss 24/1.8 offers great IQ but is overpriced.
            The downside — the 16-50 is crap. The Zeiss 16-70/4 is overpriced mediocrity (not a bad lens but not great either). The 55-250 is junk.

          • Thom Hogan

            Similar in the fact that it is limited, sure. But not in terms of quality. The AF-P lenses have been nearly brilliant. The 70-300mm AF-P just blows away the Sony APS-C telephotos, for instance.

            But I’ve long written that you live by or die by your lens set, and Canon, Nikon, and Sony all are squeezing too hard on their crop sensor lens sets. It’s costing them sales now.

          • Adam Brown

            I finally got to try an af-p lens– I was teaching someone with the d3400 and 18-55 af-p. Definitely not bad.

            I know you’ve long beaten the lens drum. While personally, I’d like to see better aps-c lenses… I think you exaggerate a little in regards to the sales it’s costing them.
            For the basic consumer shooters — beyond focal length, they can’t tell the difference in lenses and won’t ever go beyond a couple lenses.
            — for the high end users, enthusiasts and pros — they are largely shooting full frame. And many of those who are shooting aps-c, don’t mind using a full frame lens with it.
            -It’s a narrow niche of users who want to emphasize smaller sensors with top glass. Pentax, Fuji and m4:3 is serving those customers, but not sure how many of them would be shooting Canon or Nikon, but for aps-c lens selection.
            You know the data better than me– but are Canon, Nikon, Sony about 90% of the market combined?
            I see all ILC cameras bleeding customers… but I don’t see huge numbers leave Canon/Nikon/Sony to go to Fuji, Pentax and Olympus.

        • The major weak point in the EF lens lineup is the zooms lenses, which are not very good compared to the competition.

  • animalsbybarry

    Nikon needs a FF mirrorless camera!!!

    • Azmodan

      Well your prayers will be answered possibly before Xmas

      • animalsbybarry

        Do you have some basis for that comment or is it just wishful thinking ?

        • Azmodan

          So you weren’t listening to the words from Nikon themselves. Already announced they are devloping advanced mirrorless FF, aiming to be best on the market. Whether that’s true we’ll see, but it is coming and time frame could be Q4

          • animalsbybarry

            I am unable to find anything that says the time frame for the mirrorless could be Q4 and the stuff I can find is in Japanese which I do not understand

            Can you provide a link to the refferrence to Q4 you are talking about ?

  • Coffee

    So Sony is saying its easier to sell camera bodies than make money on lenses. Might be true, if you only offer a few lens then point the finger to adapters. Let someone else spend the money on lens development and research, you can sell 2-3 bodies over the life of a user for each lens acquired. Lenses are seen as investments, while bodies are disposable.

    There is also a large second hand market for lenses which make selling new lenses harder. Too much choice is bad for customer and the manufacturer.

    • To tell the truth, everybody does that for the products they are weak at. Nikon did the same for Dx when they didn’t have Fx.

  • Jeffry De Meyer

    Sony could introduce some long glass for that extra reach

  • animalsbybarry

    The other day I claimed Sony has surpassed Nikon in several key markets
    You told me I was wrong
    Now you post that Sony’s claiming #2 spot

    Do you still think I was wrong ?

    • Yes, I do – did you read the article on Yahoo Japan? It clearly says Nikon is still at #2. Once a third part officially confirms Sony is at the #2 spot, I will believe it. I’ve told you many times before – you should not believe everything you read online. I also told you that Sony has a very good marketing department. They probably found some cooked data to prove their agenda. Think about it – they decided to claim the #2 spot in an a low profile interview with IR…. They were not even questioned based on what data… Wouldn’t you think there will be press releases and fireworks? See also Thom’s comments – he actually did the math based on both company’s financial statement and Sony is not even close to being #2. Obviously you are free to believe anything – there are people who believe that Elvis is still alive…

      • animalsbybarry

        Sony has just modified thier claim
        They now claim to be #2 in Full Frame camera sales

        • Where? Like I said – they keep cooking the data until they can get to the #2 spot – last time they used only one market for only one month and they had big fat press release claiming they are #2. Now you are telling me they use only the full frame market… Nikon has not announced a full frame camera in years (the last one was the D5 in January last year and this was a specialized camera).

          • abortabort

            Exactly, Nikon haven’t announced one in ages… yet you still want to claim this is wrong?

          • because it is wrong – see the update, even without any new Nikon products, Sony still cannot get the #2 spot…

          • Laud Farter

            * Sony is #2 in FF camera sales to left-handed bald midgets named Barry having unibrows and wearing brown shoes. Sold between 1AM and 4AM on Tuesday, July 13th and 2:30 and 3:14 Friday, August 2; and to the mothers of Sony employees tasked with giving interviews (surveyed only, no receipts provided),

            Nothing cooked here….

      • abortabort

        They did a press release before, you panned them for doing that. Now they don’t and that’s wrong too? So which is it??

        • Yes, I complained before and complained now as well – they pick and choose data to present some bogus claim to Sony fanboys so they can drool and justify their spending. It’s called marketing and Sony is very good at it.

      • Laud Farter

        Funny you mention, just saw Elvis a few minutes ago. He was leaving for Vegas with his new Nikon Mirrorless and a DL for backup.

    • lol, I see it now:

      Correction, 5:36PM: The note above originally claimed Sony was #2 in overall ILC sales, when in fact they are only planning to claim they are #2 in full-frame cameras YTD. Sony clarified the statement on their position in the market and the article has been updated as such.

      So do you understand what I was saying now?

      • CaMeRa QuEsT

        If that’s true, the D850 should help Nikon bring the crown back, if, and only IF, Nikon doesn’t screw its intro. But, from the looks of it, Nikon seems to be working very carefully and diligently on this one, so hopefully they’ll be back on their feet from now on, though they really, really need to do a faultless D610/D750 replacement, as that is their volume mover.

        • Exactly – Sony waited until they have a perfect timeframe right before a major Nikon release so they can get the stats in their favor, they will be back at the #3 spot once the D850 starts shipping and they will stay for a while if not forever 🙂

          • CaMeRa QuEsT

            That, my friend, completely depends on whoever is at Nikon’s helm now doesn’t doze off, too, like his forbearer did. The D850 pre-anouncement, the upcoming NPS events, the Yahoo Japan interview and, if true, the D750 goodwill campaign are good signs that Nikon has finally come back on track and have found their true north again.

          • we shall see, I just don’t like how Sony keeps finding bogus stats to show that they are ahead of Nikon

          • abortabort

            It ALWAYS starts with small wins.

          • Well, call me when they get the big win. Because I don’t care about the small wins – nobody is reporting small wins except Sony. Nobody.

          • abortabort

            Really? You sure about that? There has been an awful lot of reporting about a grey coloured D5. Canon announce pointless BS almost daily. You only get upset when it’s Sony and especially when it pertains to your favourite fanboy brand.

            PS. YOU are reporting on this.

          • No, you still don’t get it – I get upset because Sony is pretending to be something they are not and they are looking for any misleading way to prove their agenda and people like you buy their BS. Why are you mixing grey D5 and Canon’s p&s cameras – this is no what we are talking about here.

          • abortabort

            You reported on it and then cry that people are reporting on it… AND getting upset about it.

            Oh and linking to where NIKON make opposing claims (which you of course believe). So it’s ok for Nikon, but not Sony?

            If you don’t like it Peter, don’t report on it.

          • I reported about it because Sony claimed to be #2 worldwide, obviously this was BS and I updated my post. I said that this was BS before Sony confirmed that the initial report by IR was wrong. So yes, I can smell and call Sony’s BS in advance.

          • abortabort

            Whatever. You’re very anti-Sony, regardless of the evidence you will refute these claims based on it being marketing BS. Nikon is losing share to Sony, consistently. That much is true.

          • And you are very “pro-Sony”, no matter what the facts are. Yes, Nikon lost market share but I believe that Canon picked that market share, not Sony. Even when Sony said that there is a mistake in the IR report, you still don’t believe it. Think about that for a second. I don’t argue with you that Nikon didn’t lost market share – this is a fact. But Sony is not #2 worldwide in camera sales and that is a fact as well.

          • abortabort

            I don’t own any Sony. But I sniff out fanboy BS. You didn’t answer any of the questions, you redirected. You are skirting the ‘updated’ claims about FF market share (over ILC marketshare). You make bold claims about this being BS and marketing, so let me ask again, when SHOULD this sort of thing be mentioned? I mean do they keep their mouths shut when in interviews? Could you see Canon NOT mentioning them being #1 in interview discussions?

            Honestly I think you’re just a bit wounded that Nikon are suffering.

          • Very simple – they should mention it once they become the #2 camera manufacturer worldwide, not when they are are #2 just in one category for a short period of time in one geo market only. I am not even sure why you are asking me this. Have you seen any other company making similar claims – just for one product category, for only few months and only for one geo market? If yes, please post the links.

          • abortabort

            If you include all ‘cameras’ in all markets, Sony are already well and truly #1. Moving to #2 in full frame cameras is significant.

          • This info is based on what? Show me the data.

          • abortabort

            See above.

          • Thom Hogan

            Say what? No. Sony’s own financial statements will tell you that you’re wrong on that.

          • Yes, we would all know by now if Sony is #1 – there will be press releases, videos, interviews, fireworks…

          • abortabort

            Sony own how much of then smartphone and integrated camera market? Which accounts for how much of total camera sales? In addition to video, broadcast, industrial and their relatively small consumer stills market… yeah if you count all ‘cameras’ they are pretty well in front.

            How many smartphone cameras do canon sell?


          • Thom Hogan

            Let’s see, by your logic Intel is the leading computer seller in the world.

            But then Samsung, Apple, and Huawei would be the leading camera makers, and by far.

          • abortabort

            Sooooo a camera with a screen is a ‘camera’? Sorry but Sony make camera modules, not just sensors, but OEMs can opt for without lenses etc. They are cameras, learn to deal with it.

          • Thom Hogan

            Actually, Sony just sold the “camera module” business to a Chinese entity.

            But you have an interesting definition of “camera.” By your definition, there are other very big players we haven’t even mentioned yet. Again, this is like saying that Intel is the biggest computer maker.

          • abortabort

            No, we say ‘this smartphone (or car or whatever) has a xyz camera IN IT’. We say ‘this computer has an intel processor IN IT’.

            We don’t say ‘this xyz computer has an intel computer in it’.

            It’s a camera bs processor. The camera doesn’t make the smartphone. See how that’s different? I know it’s rather hard for you because your actually not that smart*, but give it a go.

            *Pretending to be is not the same thing.

          • Thom Hogan

            We don’t refer to image sensors as “cameras.” One reason we don’t is that an image sensor only provides data, it does not assemble it into images. That’s what the Imaging ASIC does.

            As for cameras “not making the smartphone,” the primary marketing of smartphones these days are on two things: camera and display, which are obviously related (you could have a great camera and terrible display or vice versa and not have a great photography experience with the smartphone).

          • abortabort

            Well Thom, keep going. You aren’t smart. Go blog or something, because you are boring me.

          • This is a good way to end a discussion when you don’t have the facts to backup your statement.

          • abortabort

            Hmmm and Thom presented some great ‘facts’ huh? Yeah didn’t think so. The usual bile from ‘expert’ Thom and his ‘sources’. But hey, way for fanboys to band together 😉

          • Thom actually takes his numbers from the financial reports. I am sure if you ask nicely, he will explain you.

          • abortabort

            I’m actually good, I care very little for what Thom Hogan has to say.

          • Ok, so we have different opinion, let’s end this… for now at least 🙂

          • Thom Hogan

            Actually, I wonder about Sony here. If the data they were pointing to is the data I believe it to be, they signed an NDA not to disclose that to other parties. I believe they’d need an okay from the company involved—which almost certainly would require ID-ing the company and the data period/specifics–in order to use in their marketing.

          • Thom Hogan

            There’s a difference between unit volume and sales volume. And right now, both are important factors to consider.

            Canon is no doubt taking unit volume share from Nikon. Sony is also no doubt taking short term full frame sales volume from Nikon. This is not putting Nikon’s sense of urgency, Nikon’s industry-leading technology, or Nikon’s execution in good light. Just the opposite. In many ways it’s proving what I’ve complained about for some time in Nikon’s lack of a solid product line marketing approach.

            Meanwhile, in that same time period that the Canon/Sony positive results were occurring, we’ve gotten nothing in mirrorless, a cancelled DL series, and a totally failed KeyMission launch. Couple that with two or three luke-warm DSLR iterations (D3400, D5600, D7500) and you can see how the other companies would be sniffing around the blood in the water.

            Nikon’s first response that isn’t a failure, cancelled, or lukewarm will be the D850. We’ll see how that goes. But Nikon will need far more than that moving forward to keep from those share losses becoming permanent.

          • Eric Calabros

            Actually it’s surprising that Nikon did relatively well without a serious mirrorless line, without premium compacts, without attractive entry level DSLRs and without high end refresh. Brand recognition is still helping them. They should uses it more effectively.

          • Thom Hogan

            Nikon’s strength has always been high enthusiast/pro. The D7xxx up through the D5 are their strength, and the legacy lens lock-in tends to help them there. This user base of Nikon’s has been with them long term and has quite a few lenses in their closet. It’s not cost effective for those folk to switch.

            Everywhere else in Nikon’s lineup you see chaos, and chaos that comes from not having a fully integrated and rational product line management system in place.

            Even today with products like the Coolpix P900 you don’t see how Nikon positions and markets it with their strong suit cameras. If I were Nikon I would be marketing P900 users to upgrade. To what? Probably D7500+200-500mm. Sure, it doesn’t go to 2000mm equivalent, but it produces a damn better image. So there’s a natural marketing point that can be leveraged (both ways, actually). But does Nikon do that? Nope.

            When they do promise something like that–the DLs were supposed to be the pocket camera of the D8xx crowd, remember?–they totally bollocks the thing.

            Not a strong hand guiding Nikon. As the only Japanese company relying upon cameras for their main business, they seem to not understand “cameras” very well.

          • RC Jenkins

            I wholeheartedly agree. The D850 looks lined up to be a great camera, but it won’t singlehandedly rescue Nikon. Nikon’s opportunity to grow ILC market share (units) comes in mirrorless.

            I think one (of several) great offerings to help Nikon would be:

            ::Full-frame sensor, w/ PDAF. D750-like IQ.
            ::min. 8FPS
            ::New mirrorless mount + free “G” adapter
            ::(+ paid adapters, eg. tilt-shift adapter)
            ::Thin, lightweight body. Almost laptop thin.
            ::Optional battery grips (horizontal and/or vertical)
            ::USB charging
            ::Good EVF. Focus peaking, live histos, etc.
            ::Hotshoe accessories: Optional OVF w/framelines? LED panel lighting?
            ::Silent shutter mode
            ::(+ a few pancake & collapsable lens offerings. eg. 40mm F/2?)
            ::Excellent video.
            ::Improved connectivity. Native DNG support, with thumbnails synched to phone for previews & fast transfer of small / compressed DNG.
            ::$2k or under.

            With that, Nikon would have produced a brilliant, portable FF camera for the smartphone & travelling generation, compatible with existing lenses + future lenses. + video camera easily mounted on active gimbals. Charging on the go. And brilliant IQ.

            This is the 2nd body / general purpose that I would take to events, on the road, video.

            I’d easily buy both the D850 and this mirrorless…along with a handful of mirrorless-specific lenses and some accessories like the tilt-shift adapter.

            Cameras like this + other mirrorless options would show me that Nikon gets it. This would allow me to do new things I simply will not do today because of the hassle or expense.

          • Thom Hogan

            You’re sort of asking for the moon. You want new engineering solutions that cross multiple shooting boundaries, but at rock-bottom full frame price, for one thing.

            The questions that people keep forgetting to ask are two:
            1. Will ANY camera design grow the camera market at this point?
            2. Is Nikon really worried about market share, or are they going to do what even Sony is doing and try to focus high-end to preserve margins?

            The answer to #2 is yes. You don’t even need to read between the lines much to know that’s where Nikon is heading.

            #1 is debatable. Basically the longer it takes for the camera companies to join the modern image sharing world, the less of it they’ll take. We already have multi-lens smartphones, and the trend towards them getting better and more flexible will continue.

          • RC Jenkins

            I don’t think I’m asking for the moon or anything unreasonable. These aren’t revolutionary technologies at this point or new engineering solutions. Nor is this unreasonable pricing. I think there are even similar cameras out there already that meet most of the above–just not together.

            For perspective, this is a simpler camera than the D610 or D750 with fewer moving parts, in an area that Nikon needs to be very aggressive and build a following if it wants market share.

            And yes, I agree about #2. But margins mean continued conservatism and little improvement, which just causes continued decline.

            For #1, I agree that it’s a tough answer. But what I’ve observed casually is that years ago, everyone wanted to be a photographer to share images online and thought a DSLR would do it–but it didn’t. The
            -bulky equipment

            combination at the low end just didn’t provide that differentiator. People thought they wanted megapixels & zoom range, when they really wanted characters like sharpness, low noise, shallow DoF, vibrant colour–and they couldn’t get it with the above. Their DSLRs were just bigger, glorified point-and-shoots with the glass they had on there.

            So I think one solution is the opposite of the above–which mainly helps enthusiast photographers or can be supplemental. Large sensor, fast lens (but compact–luckily people are used to primes now), some control over settings, raw for extended latitude, phone connectivity for editing / sharing–in a body that people will take everywhere. Concerts, events, travel, museums, weddings, hikes–even slip it into a purse or computer bag alongside a laptop.

            This gives photographers truly differentiated IQ, while actually encouraging use. I would use this in new scenarios where I’d be discouraged from bringing my DSLRs. I wouldn’t hesitate to pack it or carry it. It would give me IQ where my phone can’t. It would be fun to use with brilliant results, not cumbersome like phone camera settings and disappointing performance. I’d edit raws & share photos from my phone on the fly, live from the location…not hours later when it’s less relevant.

            This is the aligning the equipment to the next generation.

          • I will break it down for you so you can understand what exactly happened today: Sony reported that they are #2 worldwide, I said that this is BS because every legit numbers I’ve seen show a different story. Few hours later Sony comes back and says that they did a mistake and they are #2 only for full frame cameras and only for a few months. So please tell me what I did wrong here.

          • abortabort

            So before a month wasn’t enough. Now a few months. Should they wait 5 years before mentioning anything? Until Nikon are bought by a consortium or go into receivership? At what point IS something worth reporting? Obviously any time Nikon scratch themselves it should be plastered all over the news (a-la grey paint jobs), but not Sony… oh except here where you can moan about it? Seems legit.

          • Something is worth reporting when it makes sense. Any company can find a timeframe right after a new product is released or after a rebate program when they see a spike in sales, but nobody makes a big deal out of it except Sony, because everybody knows that this is temporary. And they keep doing that – slicing the data until they can pull some “positive” news out of it. They did that twice already this year. Then you are wondering why I have a negative position about Sony – now you know, I just don’t like BS stats.

          • abortabort

            Peter, those market positions haven’t changed for DECADES. Nobody reports these changes because there aren’t any. Changes like this are significant, if you can’t see that then you are just blinded by your devotion to your fave brand.

            Put it another way, IF Nikon were claiming the top spot for a period over Canon in full frame you would be shouting it from the rooftops.

          • Like I said in my other comment – nobody reports any temporary market share gain based on one product category for a short period of time in one geo market only.

          • abortabort

            Full frame cameras across all markets year to date is NOT a short period of time in one market.

            Only BS here is your fanboy devotion.

          • You still did not answer my question – which other company is reporting this type of stats? Nobody.

          • Thom Hogan

            Actually, it is. Full frame iterations tend to be two years or more, sometimes as much as four. That’s unlike APS-C/DX and smaller, lower-cost formats.

            Thus, it’s easier to get short-term variations in the statistics due simply to iteration periods. Couple sales on top of that, which Sony has had during this period, and I’d say the data is not yet reliable.

          • Thom Hogan

            You’re making an assumption that it’s temporary. I’m not so sure. At least on this value equation. As I note above, Sony’s full frame rise here mimics Nikon’s back in post 2007. The question is whether it is a short term distortion or not. Impossible to tell at the moment. But I wouldn’t dismiss it, as it shows that either (a) KonicaMinoltaSony had susbstantive pent-up full frame demand; and/or (b) Sony is sniping and getting leaks from Canikon. Probably both.

          • Thom Hogan

            No, that’s not what happened Peter. Imaging-Resource reported that Sony said they were #2 worldwide, not Sony. Imaging-Resource has since corrected themselves to say this was #2 in full frame value sold so far in 2017.

            Nikon has a lineup that’s at 12 months old or older in full frame during that period. Canon was a little fresher. It will be interesting to see what happens when the D850 comes out, though Sony will still have two fresh cameras against Nikon’s one during this year.

          • I don’t think it is clear if IR or Sony did the mistake.

          • Thom Hogan

            Sorry, as much as I like David and all that he’s accomplished, this is not the first time that he’s published something and had to retract it. This is a rush to publish issue, I think. When a company makes a claim in an interview, it’s up to the interviewer to fully flesh out what the claim is and what it’s based on. And report it accurately. That does not seem to have happened here.

          • EcoR1

            Sony didn’t do any kind of official report or announcement. The information was presented on the interview and the reporter made a mistake probably due to the misunderstanding. Have happened before and will happen again with japanese companies. Don’t get too upset about it.

          • They did an officially press release on similar short term data earlier this year. I can find the link if you want.

          • EcoR1

            You were talking about what happened in the interview published yesterday. I corrected you and now you talk about something that happened earlier this year. You are not being very clear.

          • abortabort

            He’s being doing that through the whole discussion, bending this with that to suit his arguement.

          • EcoR1

            I have noticed that…

          • Didn’t you do the same?

          • abortabort

            I haven’t been using facts interchangeably, no.

          • Both are closely related – they both pick specific data to show Sony in a favorable position.

          • Of course he is reporting it. It’s a nikonrumours site. Besides big reportings do not come everyday.

          • EcoR1

            It’s beacause Sony is basically only camera company that actually has gained some momentum in the market. Any other sensible company would do the same in their place.

          • CaMeRa QuEsT

            Sony is a marketing monster, their tactics have been well studied and documented in BSs all over the world, that’s how they play the game and that’s how they’ve always WON it. War was declared a long time ago but it seems that Nikon brass have just realized that NOW. Sony has been for a very long time the most customer focused company in Japan and they’ve always been the most aggressive in the fields they enter. They have every type of human resources and experience that both Nikon and Canon lack in areas like marketing and business case management and they have the financial might to pull anything off. Remember, Nikon is the smallest of all Japanese camera makers in terms of capital (excluding the privately held Sigma), they just happen to own a disproportionally large share of the camera market compared to their company size, so it’s an easy target for Sony. Fighting Sony directly might actually kill Nikon if they don’t play their cards well. That’s why they’re saying that they can’t take any shortcuts anymore. Sony means business and they’re out to get both Nikon’s and Canon’s lunch!

          • Sony would not exist today if it was not for their marketing department. Nikon on the other hand probably has the worst marketing department from all camera companies. They are basically non-existing.

          • CaMeRa QuEsT

            But they are doing all right now with the limited resources they’ve got. The D850 pre-announcement and the NPS events are the way to go for them moving forward, making the most from as little investment as possible, aiming with laser-focus at the targeted D850 audience, hoping to get word-of-mouth marketing to move the product. You will later see all those NPS attendees gushing about the D850 in forums like this and that’s what will mobilize the faithful. Nikon needs to recruit all their loyal customers and fans to help them wage war against Sony.

            Nikon already lost all the brand recognition they gained between the end of the film era and the beginning of the smartphone era, all the Coolpix customers they hooked during that period have already forgotten about Nikon and that was a huge loss of brand value and captive customers. That was a terrible amount of lost opportunities, though to be fair, so it was with PowerShot, CyberShot and all the other digital P&S brands.

            But mark my words Peter: as soon as Sony figures out that CaNikon customers don’t like Handicam colors on their still photos, Nikon and Canon will officially be doomed, because that’s the main reason keeping ME and a lot of CaNikon customers from permanently swinging to Sony’s camp.

          • It all depends on how Nikon will play the mirrorless card. If they do it right, they will gain their credibility back. Nikon still has a huge fan base – much bigger than Sony. They just need to deliver in order to activate this base, otherwise their base will go someplace else.

          • abortabort

            Like Sony… funny that.

          • Yes, correct – Sony played their mirrorless card very good while Nikon was asleep. Nothing to argue here.

          • abortabort

            Sony users have complained since the beginning of Alpha (Minolta takeover) that Sony don’t market their products.

          • EcoR1

            Thats quite harsh Sony bashing. If you see the history of Sony’s imagine group, you see that rapid innovation has been one of the biggest keys to success, not so much the marketing.

            Legacy of the Minolta A-mount DSLR’s was never a real success story. So they developed SLT-technology. It didn’t really help them to gain market share. Then they created e-mount and their aps-c mirrorless cameras. It showed nice potential, but many people were still asking FF-mirrorless option, espesially after the pocketable FF-compact they made. So they used e-mount to create first FF-mirrorless cameras.

            Marketing couldn’t help A-mount, with or without the SLT, because they couldn’t differentiate themselves enough from Canikon. But now Sony have a products that people really want and marketing will also help there.

          • nobody is arguing the advances Sony has made over the past few years and I think the a9 is a very good camera – we are talking about the way they report about those rankings

          • EcoR1

            I though I was answering to your comment: “Sony would not exist today if it was not for their marketing department. ”

            My opinion about marketing is this:
            Great products will greatly benefit from marketing.
            Good marketing can save averige products.
            No marketing can save bad products in the long run ( Not even Ashton Kutcher-campaign, if you remember 😉

          • Ok, misunderstanding – I agree 100% with what you said.

          • Thom Hogan

            Well, okay. Let’s see, Sony won the TV war, the laptop war, the portable audio player war, the eReader war, the smartphone war, etc. Oh wait, no, they didn’t. Please don’t broadly generalize that Sony always wins. Their record is actually much worse than 50/50, let alone “always WON.”

            Now is Sony a better marketing engine than Nikon? Absolutely. Moreover, they embrace their non-Japanese customers better than Nikon.

          • NigelC

            Sony is a monster, but not a marketing monster. They are, however a conglomerate like Panasonic, Samsung, GE. Sony’s success has been largely based on R&D of products, starting with the Walkman, then Trinitron TVs. They lost the VHS Betamax wars but have been surviving in the consumer market. Cameras and sensors seems like their new chosen focus of excellence. I will not be surprised if they dominate the camera market in 5 years. When they say “Please look at our vision”, this is an honest statement as that is Sony culture.

          • Robert Falconer

            “…and they have the financial might to pull anything off.”

            Oh please. Sony is a shell of their former self. Lost the television business to the Koreans, lost the personal audio player business to Apple, came close to bankruptcy a couple of years back, and have zero history in the still camera industry prior to the arrival of digital — meaning a deficiency when it comes to understanding the importance of “system”, of legacy, and most importantly, of customer service. And approaching the photographic industry with a consumer electronics company mindset, when you’re trying to topple your competition, isn’t going to help.

          • CaMeRa QuEsT

            When I watched the videos of their Thailand camera/lens factory that were shot by the media, my first impression was of “what kind of run down place these guys are running to make their “world class” cameras?”, but then I realized that my focus was wrong, these guys are actually controlling cost at a level that Nikon, Canon nor Fuji (the other camera factories I’ve seen videos/pictures of) by their very nature cannot achieve. Sony is literally churning out ultra expensive optical equipment from a factory more suited to making rice cookers, and that’s quite an achievement! The money saved from not investing in a state of the art assembly line is going were it strikes hardest: in strategy, R&D and marketing.

            Nikon is actually learning to play from Sony’s book now with the way they are bringing the D850 to market: launch not coinciding with any mayor industry trade show date, doing local events laser aimed at their targeted customer, rallying up their fan base to help spread the word, etc., so they know Sony is into something.

            Using chose superlative words (and constraining them with an asterisk and small type) is the way Sony has always hyped their “game changing” new tech, along with providing them with very customer friendly “awesome” names, and with that they have been very effective in hooking unsuspected suckers, I mean, customers.

          • Robert Falconer

            Oh, I completely agree with you about Sony’s aggressiveness and their approach to marketing; Nikon has completely dropped the ball on marketing and customer service over the past few years.

            What Sony lacks, however, is a photographic culture to draw upon; purchasers of higher end cameras tend to approach said purchases not from a consumer electronics mindset, but from a “photographic instrument” mindset. Sony’s consumer electronics approach to model iteration and to customer service doesn’t play well here.

            That said, as I mentioned above, Nikon has been shooting themselves in the foot with customer service, when they really needn’t be. If I were Nikon, I’d be strategically looking at everything Sony does wrong, and begin by providing a superior customer service experience. That would be just one thing Nikon could do immediately that would help immeasurably.

            I think it likely that Nikon has awoken and sees that Sony is fast becoming a clear and present danger, particularly since the arrival of the A9. It’s unlikely that Nippon Kogaku is going to just sit around and allow Sony to eat their lunch, not unless Nikon’s upper management team are a complete and utter failure. But it will take some time for Nikon to fully turn things around. You don’t do a hairpin turn with an oil tanker overnight, after all.

            Ironically, the threat from Sony could turn out to be the best thing that’s happened to Nikon (and Canon, for that matter).

          • Thom Hogan

            Well, they’re not bogus stats. But they are a single, very specific stat among much larger stats that are more important in determining what’s happening in the camera market.

            I’ll note that Nikon took the #1 full frame title from Canon with the D3/D3x/D700 trio for a time. Some of that had to do with pent up demand in the Nikon world to match Canon in sensor size. The same has been true in the KonicaMinoltaSony world.

            The problem is that time = iteration, and iteration tends to put the owners of the bigger lens pools back where they were in terms of position.

            If Sony were indeed able to keep the #2 position in full frame after the D850 launch, that would be bad news for Nikon. It would indicate that Nikon’s hold on legacy lens users isn’t very strong (or that the D850 was screwed up in some way). But I don’t think that’s going to happen.

          • Did Nikon make a big splash with press releases and interviews when they took the #1 spot from Canon for a short period of time? Because I don’t remember it.

          • Thom Hogan

            I don’t recall them sending out a press release, but I do very much recall them calling out the NPD data in interviews they did with the press, including me. Which is why I ran a story on it eventually.

            In press presentations, I’ve seen slides from virtually every camera company with claims of market success (share, value, units, etc.). This is a common marketing approach across all of tech, actually.

          • Thom Hogan

            Uh, Peter, you’re becoming a bit disjointed on this discussion. You asked if they (Nikon) issued a press release. I replied that they (Nikon) hadn’t, but that they had disclosed such information in private discussions with press.

            You’ve now responded with “Sony issued a press release.” Yes, we know that. But it’s not the discussion part I’m responding to.

          • No, Nikon never issued a press release – this was the whole point I was trying to make: Sony is the only company that issues those types of statements. My exact comment:
            Did Nikon make a big splash with press releases and interviews when they took the #1 spot from Canon for a short period of time? Because I don’t remember it.
            I misunderstood your comment – I thought you were talking about Sony.

  • Max

    Strange…. Where I live you never ever see a Sony. Just Canon and Nikon everywhere.

    • Ric of The LBC

      Figures lie and…….

    • abortabort

      Where I live I see a lot of Sony. More than anything else (phones / iPads excluded).

    • EcoR1

      I guess you live in a retirement house. That’s cool. Be awake in visit days and you should se some other brands too!

      • Max

        Cape Town is a nice place to retire. I would count myself lucky if I can live it out here.

        If you’re a photographer (and not just a forum guy, a gearhead, or an online Sony flame thrower) you should come visit and see for yourself someday.

        Just make sure you have a camera with an EVF, because otherwise you probably won’t get your exposure right shooting the sun going down over the atlantic from Table Mountain. Or if you struggle just ask the chap with the D800 next to you to help dial it in right.

        I guess the tourists, then (lots from the US and Europe), are the visitors. They mostly wield 5D’s, 650D’s, D3200’s, D750’s lots of D7xxxs as well.

        • KC

          I love Cape Town, it is on of my favorite cities!!! Tied with Vancouver and Sydney…

          • Max

            I would love to visit Sydney one day.

          • KC

            It is a haul to get there but well worth the trip. Fortunately my job took me there (to Cape Town as well)…

      • geofflivingston

        Funny, because all my Sony friends bought Fujis.

    • Thom Hogan

      Be careful of installed base bias. Canon and Nikon have huge installed bases, Sony far less so. So unless you’re tracking just which Canon and Nikon cameras you’re seeing–I saw someone using an old 60D the other day–you can’t make generalizations of current success from previous success.

      • Max

        Be careful? I just made a comment about what I see around me.

        Is something going to bite me in the ass if I’m wrong?

    • Jer81

      I also see a lot CaNikon in the street. Some years ago I did see more people with Sony A-mount but when Sony stopped putting effort in it it died. Also see more and more Olympus/Panasonic.

    • I live in Mallorca, quite a massive tourism destination, and I can see cameras from almost all makers. Canon and Nikon are the most, but I also see quite a few Sony, and less Oly/Panny and Fuji (less, I’d say).

      But considering enthusiast/pro gear (say: someone with something more than the kit lens, and/or grip, flash…), it’s almost a Canon and Nikon thing.

      • Max

        I see Oly and Pana too. And the occasional a6xxx

  • RodneyKilo

    “They plan to do this by making it possible to capture pictures that were impossible to capture before.”

    Sony, can we have a couple specific examples of what this means in practical, real-world terms?

    • No, you don’t get any examples, just Sony’s marketing agenda.

      • abortabort

        Bahahaha! Go read Nikon’s unannounced D850 marketing buzzword bingo again.

        • Actually I am doing it right now and it looks pretty damn good

          • abortabort

            Yummy plenty of marketing guff. Only ok for Nikon though 😉

          • Did they claim somewhere that they sold more cameras for one week then Canon? Because this is pretty much what Sony did.

          • see my other comment, I hate to repeat myself – Nikon did not make any claims, Sony did – you just don’t like the fact that the D850 is such a good camera

          • abortabort

            Bahahaha! It hasn’t even been announced yet. Fanboy much? Just proves my point. Nikon are spouting a whole loaf of marketing guff, with nothing else.

          • lol…

          • abortabort

            LOL indeed.

          • Are we talking about A9R???

  • sickheadache

    Sony has a Master Plan…Take over the World.

  • citrate

    You can keep your loyalty to Nikon in your nikonrumor website.
    But keep your bias outside this website if you want to run it well and run it longer.

    • Please clarify about the bias.

    • I guess he can make whatever he wants.

  • TinusVerdino

    and A-mount?

    • abortabort

      Doing better than Nikon 1.

      • TinusVerdino

        That doesn’t say much. Nikon 1 is doing as well as Pentax Q :p

        • abortabort

          Yey they keep supporting them.

      • They are also both dead 🙂

  • True or not, they would never have tried this kind of announcement only two years ago. So it looks meaningful either way.

  • Jer81

    “still committed to APS-C”
    ROTFLOL. When has Sony announced the last APS-C lens (A-mount or E-mount)? 2015?

    • they are also still committed to the A-mount…

      • Jer81

        The last A-mount lens announcement is also from 2015 I believe. They will bring a ‘new’ body every year just to keep current A-mount users. No attraction to new users to A-mount whatsoever. The A-mount market share dropped dramatically last few years.

    • MB

      Currently Sony, Olympus and recently Canon are 3 top mirror-less players, depending on the market they share 1st, 2nd and 3rd place …
      And only Sony has full frame mirror-less … and even for Sony full frame does not make majority of cameras slaes …
      So it seems APS-C is not something so passe and out of main stream so maybe Nikon should consider and try to do what Canon (although late to the game) did so extremely successfully with Mx series … and make one too … imagine ILC Coolpix A …

      • Jer81

        I was talking about Sony. Don’t care for Nikon or Canon in this news. This is all about Sony and there lack of APS-C support.

        • MB

          I am sorry I have annoyed you but the post is about Sony claiming to be #2 in ILC market world wide, while in fact Sony is struggling with Canon and Olympus to be #2 in mirror-less segment alone on most markets, and Sony is mostly mirror-less player lately … this claim was later clarified though …
          Also the post was about Sony being focused on APS-C, and the fact is that ILC with smaller sensors are the majority of sales by far so Sony is right IMHO … and also IMHO there is a place for yet another company besides Sony and others in that segment, competition should be a good thing for us consumers …
          And I also understand your pain with Sony because most companies, Sony, Canon, Nikon alike and no matter if ILC is SLR or mirror-less, think of a smaller APS-C ILC as a point and shoot consumer products so they expect to sell it and forget about us customers, and that just don’t seem like a right thing to do. On the other hand the fact is that wast majority of smaller ILC customers never buy another lens or anything else and they are not expected to do so because it is highly unlikely that someone who bought a camera for less than 1000$ will spend 3000$ on a set of premium lenses for example … so the expected return from the investment in developing anything in that segment would be minimal if any … so Sony and others are just not interested …
          And finally I hope mentioned Sony enough times in this post? 🙂

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